Pei-Ru Ko is the founder and Jovida Ross is the executive director of Real Food Real Stories, a nonprofit on a mission to humanize the food system. Guided by a belief that food and story connect us, they host free monthly gatherings, annual story slams, and a podcast. Local chefs, cookbook authors, and food entrepreneurs gather to share their personal stories and motivations for why they do what they do. In this episode, we learn about the power of generous listening, how food plays a role in community-building, and what it’s like to transition leadership of a community.
“I always believe that when you present yourself in that deeply vulnerable, authentic, personal place, almost always people meet you there.” - Pei-Ru Ko
When Pei-Ru Ko was recovering from an autoimmune condition, she spent a lot of time at farmers markets in the Bay Area and grew close to local food producers. Relishing the relationships she built with them, she saw the opportunity to bridge a gap between food producers, sometimes lonely from their isolating work, and eaters, like herself, who wanted to trust and better understand the food system.
In summer 2014, she hosted a night rich in food and stories, packing 45 guests into her living room to learn about sustainable seafood. Since then, the community has grown to thousands of people attending their events and listening to their stories over the years. This year, Pei-Ru passed the torch to Jovida Ross as the new executive director. Together, they are elevating stories from the entire food chain and reweaving connections in the food system.
In this episode, Pei-Ru and Jovida share the power of storytelling to bring people together, how to create a space for generous listening, and why food plays an important role in building a community.
Hear more from other community leaders about stage 3 in getting your people together, 🔥Pass the Torch.
👏Learn more about Pei-Ru and Jovida and say hello at https://www.realfoodrealstories.org/
✨Learn more about our correspondent Maggie Zhang on her blog, Commonplays.
📙Grab your copy of GET TOGETHER—our handbook on community-building 🔥
👋Say hi and learn more about work we do with passionate, community-centered organizations, visit: http://people-and.com/
Note: This transcript is automatically generated, and there may be some errors.
00:07
Speaker 2: Welcome to the get together. This is our show about how to bring communities to life that can bridge the gaps between us and a digital world. I'm your host, Bailey Richardson. I'm a partner at people and company and co author of get together. How to build a community with your people. In each episode of this podcast, we interview everyday people who have built extraordinary communities about just how they did it. How did they get the first people to show up? How did they grow to hundreds, maybe thousands, more members. And today is a very special episode because I get to introduce our new get together. Correspondent, Maggie Zang, Maggie. What's up.
00:45
Speaker 3: Hey, I Maggie get together correspondent.
00:48
Speaker 2: We are so happy to have you here. You're dialing in from your house where in upstate New York,
00:52
Speaker 3: Upstate New York. Yup.
00:54
Speaker 2: So Maggie and I met through a shared friend at IDEO. What's up to Scott, Shuggie yoga. I use a design studio that Maggie and I both worked at in the past. And when we were first connected through Scott, Maggie had just spent a year traveling to 25 countries to research and write about fascinating communities, everything from human tower teams in Spain to cultural cafes and Morocco. And you can read more of what Maggie saw and what she wrote from that trip at her blog called commonplace today. Baggy is a creative resident with Montreal based design studio daily, to leisure, French, to leisure, which builds public art installations, like musical swings and giant singalongs that bring people together. Maggie, we are so lucky and so excited to have you on the podcast. And I'm curious, who are we going to interview today?
01:44
Speaker 3: Today? We're learning about real food, real stories. It's a Bay area, nonprofit on a mission to humanize the food system. They host monthly gatherings, annual story slams, and a podcast we'll be talking to. Pei-Ru co the founder and Jovita Ross, the current executive director,
01:59
Speaker 2: Maggie. I know you've had a personal experience with real food, real stories. And I was so excited when you shared them with me. But tell me in your own words, why were you so excited to interview Jovita? And Pei-Ru
02:10
Speaker 3: After living in the Bay area for three years, I fell in love with the food scene, the farmer's market. And I always wanted to learn more about the stories behind what I was eating. Real food. Real stories is awesome because they bring together the people who make the food with the people who eat the food. I went to one of their annual story slams, and it was so inspiring to hear from my favorite cookbook, authors chefs from local restaurants. And it made me feel more connected to what I ate and the stories I heard still stick with me to this day. So
02:38
Speaker 2: What's one thing that you learned from our conversation today with Pei-Ru and Jovita, what stuck out.
02:43
Speaker 3: I think it's really beautiful, how Pei-Ru talked about hosts. She believes that to create a safe space for storytelling, you need to make people feel welcomed from their first step into a space. So for every event, there are multiple hosts there to greet each guest and make them feel like they're part of the community from the moment they walk in and they take training hosts really seriously, helping them focus on principles like generous listening. I think that's an inspiring approach for anyone building communities today may say, great, well, let's jump in. Hey, ruined Jovita. Thank you so much for being here and joining us on this podcast. Maybe we can start with the basics first. Can you introduce yourselves for people who don't know what is real food, real stories, and how would you describe the community around it? Real fears, real stories is on a mission to humanize the food system. And we do that through the practice of generous listening and authentic story sharing and gathering in community. It has historically been in person. And these days in the context of global pandemic, we've shifted to online gatherings pay rate will bring us back to 2014 when you were starting real food, real stories. What were your personal motivations to gather a community like this?
03:54
Speaker 4: When I moved to the Bay area around 2010, I came here to study nutrition and they're excluded practices to attempt to help myself recover from the autoimmune condition. And in that process, I spent a lot of time researching and going to farmer's market and meeting Bay area food, producers and providers simply for my own learning and my own journey. And I totally thought this was a temporary side gig in my life. And it wasn't until mostly because of many relationships that build through the researching time, met a lot of producers who became deep friends. And I noticed that so many people in the food system were really in it with nothing else, but pure motivation to feed us better, to create a better food system. All these really sincere motivation beyond monetary gains. And it was deeply moving as someone who moved from Taiwan to the Bay area.
04:53
Speaker 4: I didn't have my community here. I didn't know anybody. I was just roaming around the farmer's market and the food scene trying to find my place. And not only was that inspired by what they were doing, but I was also nourished by the friendship that came out of the connection to where my food comes from. And so we put on the first gathering mainly because I noticed there may be a little gap. Someone like me who was curious about the story behind my food, I had to put in a lot of effort to find a suit I can trust and build a relationship that I can depend on and understand the cost complex system that was around me. There wasn't an easy place where I can meet others who have similar vision, similar believe of the food system as I did. So there's a guy on my that eaters.
05:46
Speaker 4: And then in terms of a lot of producers, I met, there's a gap from their end, too. They are so busy, whether it's growing their food or cooking their food or delivering their food. And it's also extremely isolating. It's hard for them to have a forum where they can truly share their whole story. And that's whole story, meaning it's not just the success, the marketing ready story of a brand, but they can share their full journey of being a human and working, dedicating their heart and all their being to produce healthier food. Sometimes in the busy day to day of these work is also hard for them to reconnect with the original purpose, the original fire that's in their heart that got them to do what they do. So they didn't have a community where they can read the eaters that get their food and be, or stay connected to their story. So there seemed to be the gap from both ends, really from that desire to give back to the folks who help heal, we thought, why don't we try to create a space where listening, where connecting was, where my soul comes from for an eater or for a producer, it's connect with the eaters who are benefiting from their food, or just simply having community that's healing. That's nourishing that is inspiring. That's positive to come together. So we held the first gathering. There were 45 people in my living room.
07:06
Speaker 3: Love a good living room community start you'd be surprised how many people start a community in their living room whatever's available.
07:14
Speaker 4: They were sitting on the floor. We cooked a meal that we share with 45 people that night found the biggest pot. We can gather to cook up some soup and some bread. And it was that night, the connection that was in the room, the sense of safety that was available. And there's a place where I can be myself. There's a place where other people will welcome me as myself. It was a powerful moment. And then we thought maybe we won't do it again. Then just evolve from that night.
07:43
Speaker 3: Hmm. I'm curious, you mentioned 45 people. What kinds of people showed up for the first gathering?
07:49
Speaker 4: The first time was mostly people I know, and their friends of friends. A lot of times the people with tens are either drawn by the story or connected to the storyteller as well.
08:00
Speaker 3: Hmm. And what do you think contributed to that vibe of safety connection, welcoming? Like, was there anything you did to set up your living room to make it feel that way?
08:09
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think being clear on why you're gathering while we worked out was a central tenant that helped create this space, but I spent a lot of time preparing with the storyteller for his story ahead of time and building the trust, the bond, the exploration of his story for him to feel ready and willing to share as honestly as he could. I always believe that I seen it again and again, in my lifetime, when you present yourself in that deeply vulnerable, authentic, personal place, almost always people meet you there. And I think that was key to creating that space of sharing and listening and connection. But there are also some other things we did. We had folks who are trained as hosts that night pushed me, were prepared. They knew what the stories were going to be that night. They knew where the bathroom was in the living room.
09:01
Speaker 4: They knew what the food was. They knew who they were hosting. So each host had seven people. They knew who they were, they were ready to welcome them in that space. I always felt so sad to my spirit when I go to events that I arrived there. And just, nobody seems to care that you're there you stand there awkwardly. You don't know who you should talk to. Can you break in the conversation that was happening in that pot, where you're just holding your cup of water, we're wine, trying to pretend, and you don't feel awkward, right? But it's to create a safe space. You need to be welcomed from your first step into this space. And that's what the host's job was to help people feel welcome. And I think that was a big part of creating that space, where people felt safe.
09:41
Speaker 5: You have some really clear instincts around storytelling, being something that helps connect people, vulnerability that is being something that helps connect people. And also, you know, you were talking about how important that sense of belonging was to you. And I can see that by bringing in hosts to make sure individuals felt welcome. You're solving for that. So what is your background? Where did you realize that story was so important?
10:04
Speaker 4: It's it really came out of the experience I had back in college. I've always been someone who's really interested in people. And I came to the States to study and was excited that I would get to meet folks from very different backgrounds and work with them. But like, I think many college campuses, you quickly see students separate into their little groups. And I just felt so dissatisfied that I see some outward diversity on our campus, but in terms of the way that we talk to each other or who we spend time with, I didn't experience that. So as a young person, I thought across the screen here on this other side and I'll just transfer it to another goal and everything will be better. But as I was sharing my plan with a staff at our school, you asked me, but do you feel like there are stories?
10:54
Speaker 4: And I said, yeah, I believe it. At least that's my intuition. I see it around me. People come from all kinds of places. They come from all kinds of experiences. They bring their own ideal, their worldview, their baggage, their curiosities, but we're not talking to each other at that level. And he said, then could I challenge you to create a time and a place where appropriate for people to share those stories? And that challenge was what got me to stay in that challenge was, was that made to start a program call, let me tell you a story. It's still going strong over decades on that campus. We held a storytelling gathering every Sunday night by nonfunctioning fireplace in our students center and we bake or color's favorite cookie. Awesome.
11:41
Speaker 5: I saw it as a unifier for students of many different backgrounds who come together to listen. And that's when I started learning about how to support and coach a storyteller to prepare story ahead of time.
11:54
Speaker 2: So every storyteller at my college campus were coached before they were presented. And at the end of the night after the sharing, I would notice that people would go up to the storyteller and say things like, well, I didn't know that about you, or if I only knew, and just the connection that crossed boundaries or differences were so powerful, there were always hugs, often tears. And just that sense of not alone was so present. And it was so clear to me early on that if I had the privilege to be working with stories in my career, that would be the most amazing thing.
12:33
Speaker 3: So how about your instincts about pairing storytelling with food then for your first gathering for real food, real stories, what made you decide to also cook alongside that? And then with your first story experience, why did you choose to add cookies? Like how did you know food should be a connector?
12:49
Speaker 2: I mean, when you're working with college students, you gotta have some food, some snacks true, true. It's very primal. All the students who are prepared to help the storyteller work on their stories, bake the cookies and the cookie would be the storyteller's favorite flavor. And just so the food has some kind of connection back to the story. So it was something extremely basic. It's like, Oh, how else can we entice folks to calm, especially the first few times. And it just stuck. It became this part of the culture. And now being in the food system for a while, I've read plenty of literature. I talked about the power of breaking bread together, but it, it started with just this intuitive feeling like let's have something sweet, delicious, connected to the story that we can all share. And I always found personally, when I remember a memory best, it's connected with some kind of sense, some kind of flavor, some kind of aroma that can take me back to that place. And so when people share these stories, how great would it be if we serve peanut butter cookie, and the next time the person had that peanut butter cookie somewhere else, they remember, wow. I heard this powerful story that night. I met someone I didn't know, I could get along with or didn't know that I will have similarities with and having that flavor, bring that memory back. That would be really neat.
14:09
Speaker 3: I love that. That's so beautiful. A little memory vehicle. So I'm just like fully imagining that scene from Ratatouille right now. I love that movie put, please continue.
14:18
Speaker 2: You asked about the first real for real story gathering. I mean, I couldn't have a store a night about food and not serve people as something when the food is connected with the story and the story links back that way, it just that much more layer, like any good dish you want to layer the flavor.
14:38
Speaker 3: So moving on from that first gathering, how did the community end up growing
14:43
Speaker 2: Word of mouth? It was then, and then mostly is now to us, a small nonprofit. We don't have the budget to put out ads and anything else, but word of mouth is also the most powerful way because we are curating a safe connective place. And we want to make sure people walk through the door, know what this is about. We don't need to pack the room in the rush just so we can feel like, Oh wow, lots of people are here. We want to make sure people who are there are ready to listen so they can hold the stories that will be shared that night.
15:16
Speaker 6: Yeah. People have told us that they come because they are interested in being more connected with where our food comes from and to understand more about the people behind our food. And they find the experience nourishing and inspiring. And also that it feels like a community people have told us that it feels heartfelt that they meet people there and have meaningful conversations and it feels human scale. And so it's not just a panel where you're going to hear the ideas, but you're actually going to connect with other people.
15:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's awesome. I'm just really intrigued by when you were saying for your first gathering, you talked about how you were preparing the host to greet people who are coming. And it seems like now a huge part of real food, real stories in the community is the volunteer system and the facilitators. Can you talk more about how do you train them? How do you recruit them? What that looks like? Yeah. We held our own, the first
16:10
Speaker 2: Training this past year 2019, and we simply had an open call for anyone. Who's interested to learn more about facilitating authentic stories. And it has been intuitive work for a long time. I was the main facilitator for referral Sri for most of its evolution. But we thought about how do we turn that intuitive process into one that we can train one, that we can replicate. One that we can share as widely as we can. And so we came up with a whole training modality, there are two parts, and we had an open call for anyone who wants to sign up and be a part of the training. And potentially after the training, you can volunteer to facilitate real for real street gathering. Some of the main lessons that we shared in the training are around generous listening, even as a facilitator to create that safe space between you and the person you're coaching or facilitating the core requirement is that sense of safety.
17:10
Speaker 2: That sense of being heard that sense of being welcome as their wholesale. So we talk a lot about listening. We talked about managing our own biases. We talked a lot about self care in a very complex way. I remember some of the earliest story I facilitated were hard. I worked with story that talked about all kinds of trauma, because a lot of times the trauma also led to growth. Trauma leads to new revelations. A lot of times stories can connect to hard parts in our life. And so how, as a facilitator, you can hold space for that and also post space for other, but taking care of yourself in that process. That's something we talked about in the training as well. Sounds like
17:49
Speaker 5: You have a whole course where you're able to teach people how to get to a good story. Is there one or two insights that you can share with anyone who is maybe thinking about a community that revolves around story and how they can get regular folks to the point where they're telling a story that really represents them well, and that they're proud of
18:09
Speaker 2: This might sound a little meta, but I truly believe a lot of us need the gentle reminder that your story is worthy. And that comes with the facilitator that comes with the listener to truly come up with that belief as well. When you look at the world, when you look at people around you, whether rich or poor well-dressed or not anyone around you, how you can shift your orientation to believe that all of their stories are worthy and no matter where they come from, no matter how different they are, whether it's their political belief or is their education background, whatever it is, how can we shift our orientation to others as everyone is worthy of respect, everyone's worthy to be heard. Everyone has a story to tell. And when you can shift your own orientation, that way, the way you look at the world, then I think that's the main thing that's needed before. You can truly meet someone with an open heart. And when you can truly listen to someone else generously.
19:11
Speaker 5: So switching gears a little bit, one move I thought was really interesting from your video stories is before it was ticketed dinners. And then in 2018, you transitioned to making your monthly gatherings free. Can you talk more about that decision and why was that important?
19:26
Speaker 2: I personally saw a secret mission of real, for real story has always been, how can we help folks to feel less lonely in a busy but lonely world? And it means, yes, we are talking about food system. Yes. Oftentimes we're talking about sustainability and climate change, but we're also talking about human connection. We're talking about similar joys and hope and sorrow and fears that we all have. Those are the stories that we anchor on and to truly have a place where all are welcomed. We have to do our best to lower the barriers for people to come together. And there are many, many barriers, even just by the fact that you're hosting a gathering at 6:00 PM. Meaning some people can not make it. If they're working the night shift, that's a barrier. They can not make it, but we know at least the one thing we could do to open the door as wide as we could, was to make it free. So in a busy city of San Francisco in the Bay area, that it could be an accessible space to come together.
20:35
Speaker 5: So how are you able to fund the free gatherings, especially for the storytellers, for the food involved and how do you fund the organization? In general,
20:44
Speaker 2: The community has been supported in ways than one individual donation as a big part of that. We rely on to keep things free. And we always suggest if coming to this gathering and you're able, this is the amount that you can contribute to help make it free and accessible for others.
21:02
Speaker 6: We've been working with host sponsors, they might sponsor our venue. They might also sponsor the food and refreshments. And in some cases they'll actually contribute financial resources. In addition, we have a mix of individual donors, grants and fee for service training on what we do and how we approach story. And then of course, the event specific revenue story slam was our annual fundraiser there's event sponsors who are featured in the fundraiser and individual ticket sales and donations connected with events. Can you
21:39
Speaker 3: Tell us more about the monthly gatherings, the story slams, like what are all the pieces of real food, real stories and what does the community look like now? The money?
21:47
Speaker 6: Well, the gatherings are the original separate club. There initially were a few different kinds of events. And the team has really honed in on this space for a deeper dive to really listen to one person specifically and hear their story and come together around food. That's where the community really feels connected and there's a meaningful gathering. And so we've now transitioned to that being roughly once a month. And we're organizing that in seasonal themes. For example, our theme at the beginning of this year was climate change and your dinner plate and our theme right now is responsibly trending. And so we have storytellers whose stories in some way, relate to that theme. Initially those separate club gatherings were 30, 40 people each time. And now there's between 60 and a hundred people. The first gathering that I went to, there was actually 110 people. So there is a broader reach and that's, as we shared earlier, it's really grown through word of mouth.
22:49
Speaker 3: So what would you say are some of the defining principles of the real food, real stories, community I love on your website, all the words around generous, listening, authentic sharing, and how much you emphasize diversity too. Can you just tell us a bit about your principles? I'm going to get a little bit nerdy and share the context for our work.
23:09
Speaker 6: When we buy prepackaged food from the market, we don't have a personal connection to where it comes from. In most cases, we don't even know where those ingredients were grown and how it's transformed into the product that we buy. We know that life is interdependent, that we are part of nature and that we need to shift our food systems to be more diverse, regionally based, respecting the ecology that the food is grown within. And so it's a really potent place to reconnect with those essential relationships that make our life possible. The land that we live on in our food comes from the water that nourishes us, the labor and creativity that makes our lives possible. Our work is really about reweaving those connections. Some of the principles are around leading with empathy, the practice of generous listening as an expression of care that we are lifting up and celebrating the products and people who are creating positive feedback for the people and the planet.
24:17
Speaker 6: That there's a sense that we're in this together. There is science around story and how people connect through story and there's science around diversity and how that supports community resilience. Our essential principle is that food and story connect us and that coming together around food and story are a way to heal some of the ruptures that that industrialized food economy has created. And to start, reweaving a caring economy that is connected with a balanced web of relationships that actually nourish life. Yeah, that's great. Especially what you're saying about diversity builds resilience. Even on the website, I saw it, you were saying storytellers, there's 37% immigrants, 64% women, 46% people of color. And that's a really impressive mix, especially for the Bay area,
25:07
Speaker 2: In terms of diversity, there's all that. And also a referral. We strive to tell stories from the entire food chain. So we don't just focus on the stories of producers, farmers. We don't just focus on stories of incredible chefs. We talk about the whole link between the food and us back to seeds, back to spices, back to just all the rounds to distribution, all the, not so glamorous less scene of the food system before the food gets to us. We talked about all of that and it turns out that diversity, we find really important as well.
25:41
Speaker 6: One thing that's interesting to explore, especially because we have YouTube together is to talk about what was the leadership handoff like for you pay through the founder to then transition to Jovita the current executive director. Can you tell us a bit more about that? And then also what's your vision for real food, real stories in the future?
25:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've always, since the beginning of her, for real straight, tried my best to not have the organization to be deeply tied with me as an individual when we held the first gathering for real, for real story, it came from this motivation of giving back building community, finding a sense of belonging and sharing stories. It was simple as that. I didn't plan to start a nonprofit. I just had this pure, simple desire to have a space for an eater like me to feel like home to me, others similar to me, and to hear other stories and to be able to give back to our food system and then evolved it turned into a not-for-profit, but I always knew a founder could do only so much for our organization at different time for the organization evolution. You need different leaders to come in to be able to take it as far as it could that a founder may not be able to. So it was always just waiting for a time to pass the Baton. It was always in the plan and Jovita showed up at the perfect time
27:01
Speaker 6: When I was exploring, coming on board at real food, real stories, Terry and I sat down one on one and she told me that she welcomes the evolution of the community and that she's excited to see where it goes next. Just getting that explicit blessing from the founder was so important. And, and I'm really grateful for period's partnership as we're still, you know, finding new ways. This is very fresh. I've only been onboard for about three months. And so we're still finding our working rhythm. Piru is part of our advisory board now and continues to be an active part of the community. And I think part of what makes that transition possible also is just the strength of the community itself and that there are people who are invested in the space that has grown around this approach to food and story.
27:57
Speaker 5: Do you mind if I ask one more question of both of you? Sure. Great. Yeah, I think I'll just ask, you know, what's on your mind, like, what's the biggest challenge that you're thinking about now? Jovita, it sounds like you came on in the midst of one of the craziest times that any of us have faced in our lives, COVID-19 showing up in the world, but you know, maybe it's that maybe it's something else, but what is the worry that you have or the concern or the challenge that you're facing right now that it takes up a lot of your time or mental energy?
28:25
Speaker 6: I started with real food, real stories at the end, beginning of March and on March 16th, the Bay area shelter in place order went into effect. So I had a chance to meet twice with our staff in person before we were all working from home. That also of course means that we've had to shift our approach to our gatherings, where we have historically really focused on building community in person. We like the rest of the world have shifted to gathering online and we've done it twice now. And it seems to be working really well. There are committed community members who continue to show up the storytellers are still able to authentically share their personal story. The ability to connect can transcend place. There's also people who are new to us coming into those gatherings and saying that it's one of the most meaningful online experiences that they've had.
29:26
Speaker 6: We had a plan in place to be expanding, bringing our approach to other regions in the context of pandemic. We understand that in-person gatherings of the size that we create. Won't possible probably for the next year, maybe even longer. So we're having to really connect with why do we do what we do and how can we translate that into the digital space? One thing we're exploring is how to bring the conversation about reweaving relationships into both the digital gatherings, the virtual gatherings with those deeper dive conversations, but also into social media and how to bring support for the food change makers who are leading the way in creating more regenerative food economies, but also how to use this moment where the global economy is significantly disrupted. That brings so many challenges with it and has been really hard, especially for people working in food. Any disruption creates an opportunity to reimagine and restructure. So how can we be a part of leading and supporting those people who are leading towards a more regenerative regionalized food economy? So invite your listeners to join us in a virtual gathering. They can find that information on our website and then also check out our social media over the next few months and join in that bigger conversation. Cool.
31:01
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. Hope it was fun. I personally learned a lot from you.
31:08
Speaker 5: Thank you for the work you do. And it was great to hear the story of where all this came from. I feel like I've had my own experiences with loneliness and I can't imagine just showing up in a new country and having all of that self motivation to go out and meet people and build your own community and such a wonderful thing. All that came out of this. So it was wonderful to hear the story and thank you for your time today. Thank you, Bailey. Thanks Maggie. Thank you both. See you have a great day.
31:34
Speaker 3: If you want to connect with real food, real stories, you can reach them at real food, real stories.org. There you can find information about their monthly gatherings, annual story slam and their podcasts. The curious eater,
31:45
Speaker 5: And you can find out more about us people on company at our website, people and.company. Also, our book is on Amazon. Check it out, get together book.com. It's full of
31:56
Speaker 7: Stories and learnings from the conversations with community leaders. We've had like this one with Pei-Ru and Jovita. Oh, and last thing, if you like this podcast, please review us and click subscribe. It helps more people find the episodes. Awesome. Maggie, great work. We'll see you guys next week. See you